INTERVIEW: Alex De Bard Talks Cultural Cosplay
Alex De Bard has a bone to pick.
The Bronx-born actress has made a home here in the District, just over the Anacostia, and has established herself as one of the region’s more prolific performers. Just in the last year alone you could find her in Signature’s Passing Strange, Private Jones, and most recently Hair — first in the ensemble, but finishing out in the role of Sheila. But Signature isn’t her only turf, of course: she was recently seen in Mosaic’s workshop of Postmortem, and later this year she’ll be playing Anna in a massive staging of Disney’s Frozen at Olney Theatre Center, in one of the very first regional productions.
While her talent and range are the drivers behind these roles, there’s something else that seems to get her in the audition room that’s less eager: her skin color. Or rather, the fairness of it which creates an “exotic” ambiguity that casting directors seem to prefer. Recently she posted some thoughts about the matter to her social media story. I’ve had similar experiences in my own life, so I took some time to chat with Alex about her experiences as a mixed person in theater spaces. There is an ever-growing desire to tell diverse stories, but not always the talent pool with the lived experience to do so. (Alex uses she/her pronouns and spells her last name with a capital D in De Bard.)
This interview was conducted with the support of Grassroots DC, an East of the River-based media organization who specializes in bringing the power of the press to marginalized groups. You can support their cause by donating here.
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Morris Theatre: Thank you for taking the time today and interviewing. And thank you for being my inaugural interviewee!
Alex De Bard: Of course!
MT: I guess like, how have you been since Hair closed? What’s the latest?
ADB: Good, I mean Hair was a long run — one of the longest I’ve ever done — so it definitely took like, readjusting back into my life. But it's been good having time to rest, and I have a lot of really cool projects before I start Frozen, which I’m really excited about.
MT: Nice, yeah, I’m upset I missed you as Sheila because that’s a great role and I wanted to check it out again before it ended. But I am excited for Frozen, too.
ADB: It’s such an exciting project to be a part of, since there’s only really been the one production outside of New York. I’m glad to bring it to DC.
MT: So tell me about yourself: what is your ethnic, racial, and/or cultural background? How has this informed the kind of roles you’ve taken on in the past?
ADB: Yeah, so I am mixed race. My mother is Black and my father is White. When people ask me what I am I usually say that I am Black or Mixed, and generally, I’d say Mixed people are pretty constantly on a journey of finding themselves within the term “Mixed”. Because a Mixed person can look like anything and your face can change so much, and different features can get highlighted as you get older. And so the way you identify yourself can change, so I haven’t always identified myself with those words specifically and it might change down the line. I think my general Mixed life experience and honestly everybody’s life experience affects how they take on a role. That’s what makes what we do so special and I always bring my lived experience into the room in terms of role. I don’t believe my Mixed experience or background brings with it a wider pool of options necessarily. If I could play all the roles listed as explicitly Black or explicitly White, then I guess I could see it as something expanding my options, but that’s not the case when people look at me: they see a person of color.
MT: Yeah, I’m also Mixed. So like I get it as a matter of perception: all my friends growing up in Maryland were South Asian Muslims, despite the fact my mother is White and father Black and I was raised irreligious. I just ended up being roped into that group based on how I was perceived, despite what my actual background was. Yet my partner is also Mixed and had an entirely different experience growing up in the District.
ADB: And I think that’s probably played the biggest part in my word choice when people ask what I am and why I immediately identify myself as Black first. I guess because every Mixed person does not have that experience, the effect is different for each person and that’s why it makes people have to make the decision of how to identify for themselves.
MT: Yeah, my sister is very White-passing and unlike me has very curly, blonde hair. You wouldn’t even know that she is a person of color if she didn’t openly identify as such. It’s so funny how genes work.
ADB: Right; my siblings, who we all have the same parents, we each have different features that are accentuated and so our range of how “Black” we look to how “White” we look is different, and the way each of us identify is different.
MT: Exactly — I guess jumping from this, what particularly frustrated you recently regarding the use of “racial ambiguity”? In reference to your story posts.
Alex De Bard in Signature's Into the Woods.
ADB: I mean this is definitely something that’s been on my brain and on my heart for the past few years. I think that those of us who are labeled as “racially ambiguous” have been, in one way or another, sort of told that this is like a superpower. People are like, “Oh, you can play anything because people can’t tell what you are just by looking at you!” I think in a world where it used to be extremely difficult or impossible for any person of color to get a seat at the table, this might have been seen as a “superpower” — like minorities were given crumbs and being told that we should just be happy to be at the table. White people would just say, “Oh, let’s just throw any person of color up there to play such-and-such, doesn’t matter if they identify that way or not.” I’m not taking a seat just because it’s offered to me; there’s someone that that chair belongs to and I refuse to misrepresent myself for a paycheck. I think people of color deserve better and we deserve to have seats that are for us, and if I have to pull up a chair, I’ll pull one up and invite others to the table at seats that are for them.
MT: Makes total sense.
ADB: It’s like, “Oh, well, they called me in so I’m gonna go” and if I don’t feel that if it’s appropriate for me, I say something. Or I’ll ask them to be seen for something else. So it was a lot of things, I don’t think it was one specific moment.
MT: How commonly are you asked to kind of represent these cultural identities that aren’t your own?
ADB: It happens a lot. But I do think that the things I’m called in for are the things that people have assumed that I am: a lot of the things that I appear to be or things that you might not be able to tell just by looking at me. I know this is something that happens everywhere and not just in the DC area. I’ve been called in for shows in New York and asked to represent cultural identities outside of my own, and I’ll politely decline or ask if there’s anything else they’d like to see me for. Every time I’ve done that, without fail, it’s been met with gratitude and understanding because I think that it’s important for a lot of people to know. There is this misconception that if you say no to something, or say “Hey, I don’t think this is for me”, that a theatre won’t invite you back. And in my experience, that’s not the case.
MT: I know Netflix famously loves to cast Mixed or light skinned people in all of their person of color roles, which is harmful to the breadth of representation that they claim to be striving for, and borderline tokenism. It’s encouraging to hear people like you speak out about it for stage performance.
ADB: I think once we, as performers, start to see these things that might be labeled as “missed opportunities” as things that were never for us in the first place then it won’t feel like a loss, or like we missed a chance. I think of the few roles I can think of that are specifically for mixed-race people with the same mixed identities as me that are Black and White, and if I think of somebody else that just appears to be that being pulled in and playing those roles, how harmful that would be for me to see; and the thought of being harmful in that way to another person who might be excited to go see themselves represented on stage and to have somebody there that only looks like it. How horrible that is. I would never want to be that person.
MT: I assume it would be easier to just find the people they specifically need without going through this trial and error, which seems like a waste of time for the actor and the production.
ADB: Yeah, of course for legal reasons they can’t ask.
MT: As any job.
ADB: Well, they can’t require you to share what you are. So I always appreciate being given the option to share that information during the casting process a lot of the time. I’ve had run-ins with theatres where they’ll send you a form beforehand — [a local theatre] does this, they send you a form and there’s optional questions where you can share your racial, ethnic, or cultural identity but that’s truly all they can do on their end.
MT: So it’s on you as a performer, like it should be reliant on self-accountability to know their own experiences? Like a sort of code of ethics about how they represent themselves as a person of whatever culture they might be.
ADB: In cases of shows where a particular culture is at the forefront of the story, or where a character’s culture is an essential part of the story, performers with that cultural identity should be the ones telling that story. So because theaters can’t require people to share that, that’s where I think the responsibility is — it’s all on us as performers, and then on theatres once that information is shared. I don’t know how they log these things or how they keep people in lists, but I think then the responsibility only falls on them to not continuously be asking people to come in for things that aren’t appropriate for them, you know.
MT: And people can change their mind about how they want to be represented.
ADB: I think that if it’s a matter of like, a part of your cultural identity that maybe you don’t identify with at the time, or that you don’t feel comfortable playing at the time. You can always stop the theatre and be like, “Hey, I’m really interested in being seen for this thing" and a lot of the time they’ll just pull you in so you don’t always have to wait for them to do it.
MT: Makes sense — it seems like it should be a sort of conversation; a two-way street. The performer should disclose what they are comfortable with — which can change — but the theater should understand that for both present roles and in the future. They can’t read minds.
ADB: Yeah, because I think about Mixed people and how, for example, I didn’t always identify as Black first. I would say that I was Mixed and wasn’t always going out for roles that were explicitly “Black” because “Oh, I don’t feel Black enough.” That has shifted throughout my life. So those are roles I go in for most now because it is a huge part of my identity and how I represent myself. And again, that’s our responsibility as performers to be conscious of their identities — theatres can’t read your mind, right.
MT: What are some of your experiences being called back with this mindset? Have they called you in based on the self-disclosed specific identities, or even called you back in despite them?
ADB: Absolutely. I’ve definitely seen the same people at calls where I know that they’re not from that culture. I’m not sure if it’s a case of “they shared and the theatre ignored it” or “they chose not to share” and that’s where I feel hesitant to speak on it. Because I have no idea how they share that information. But I have been called in more than once at a theatre, for a culture that I’m not, but I do think in those two instances it was different because the cultural identity of the character changed. The first time it was not an essential part of the character, but the second time it 100% was. Both times I spoke up. The first time I said, “Hey, I’m not this thing, so if I am asked to play this character, know that this character will not be that thing. This character will be Mixed because I am Mixed and the character will be Black and White because that is what I am.” I don’t ever step into a role and the character is anything other than what I am; other than that, I think it’s like cosplaying as a character. It’s not appropriate."
MT: How does this play into your upcoming role in Frozen, which is written to be race-blind?
ADB: People are not race-blind, they’re going to see two women of color playing these roles. I think in terms of Disney and representation across the board, when it’s a children’s show, and kids get the opportunity to see people that look like them playing characters that they love so much? I think it’s a beautiful thing. In terms of European descent: there are people of color all over Europe!
MT: Wholeheartedly agreed; the “West” is so diverse now. It’s the reality we live in.
ADB: It’s not even a matter of race being an issue, it’s just beautiful to expand a lot of these shows to include many different kinds of people. In this case, I don’t see it as the race being essential to those characters. In some places it may be essential to pull in Norwegian influence, but this is not weakened by the color of my skin.
MT: I remember it being a big deal when Jelani Alladin, who is Black, was cast as Kristoff on Broadway — and then later Hercules in the Public’s production of the latter. I had tickets but for some reason never went! Olney has a history with powerful productions of Disney shows, such as with their Beauty and the Beast some years ago. I bet this is why they got the call for Frozen.
ADB: It’s definitely a statement to have two women of color playing Elsa and Anna in this production. There is something really exciting about the fact that it’s two people of color. I’ve never seen a Frozen across the board where they’ve ever had Elsa AND Anna played by women of color. It’s awesome!
MT: Do you have any closing thoughts?
ADB: It takes an open dialogue and respectful self-identification to ensure everyone gets a seat at the table. Representation, too, needs to go beyond regular ideas of space and time: like “Arendelle”, where even are we? Why do regular ideas of race need to exist here? It’s ultimately a grassroots effort, one that uplifts everyone into the seat they deserve, and one that best depicts the world we live in.
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Alex can be found on Instagram at @alex_debard.
